ᏫᎩᏇᏗᏯ:ᎾᎥ ᏄᎾᏓᎸ ᎾᎿᎢ

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Ideas to aggressively delete or mostly blank poor-quality entries[edit]

I am currently streaming a video conference about the Cherokee language and language-revitalization efforts from Western Carolina University's Cherokee Language program[1] where Dr. Hartwell Francis, the former director, is speaking. To paraphrase him, he stated that the Cherokee-language community has been aware of this project for a decade, but that many of the current Wikipedia articles are of remarkably poor quality because of the influence of bot-generated entries. This makes even looking at them incredibly demotivating because the challenge of fixing them is so daunting. Thus, he suggests cleaning up the project and perhaps revitalizing it through aggressive deleting of low-quality entries.

A possible alternative to mass deletion might be mass partial blanking to encourage more human-created edits. A poor quality article could be reduced to some boiler-plate text like "XXX is in need of an article" or "XXX had the previous article replaced with this text because it was poor-quality, but please feel free to begin a new article now", but in Cherokee. I am not a Cherokee-speaker, but I could help make these edits (or teach someone else to) if a boiler-plate text and a list of the low-quality demotivating entries were provided. I plan to notify Dr. Hartwell Francis about this thread, and let him know that I believe an bold approach like this is warranted (and feasible) in order to deal with what appears like a stagnant project. Any ideas? Biosthmors (talk) 16:00, 26 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)

Ping to User:Ooswesthoesbes, who I see has helped start short articles here (for example ᏣᎳᎩ ᎫᎾᏕᎶᏆᏍᏗ ᏚᏓᏥᏍᎬᎢ). Biosthmors (talk) 16:16, 26 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)

If partial blanking or mass deletion of those pages results in more activity from native (or at least fluent) speakers, I have no objections :) Although I believe pages like ᏅᏃᎯ are also important to look at, as they seem to be bot generated articles which are not fully translated and probably incorrectly as well. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 16:35, 26 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply Ooswesthoesbes. For ᏅᏃᎯ, yes, I'd guess, just based on hearing people talk about Cherokee Wikipedia, that a lot is probably incorrectly translated. The concept of turning articles into much shorter versions of themselves ("stubs") should also be considered. (For reference, on English Wikipedia the concept is referred to as "stubifying".) If a couple sentences of useful content can be preserved or generated, then massively chopping a gargantuan poor-quality article down to a factual sentence or short paragraph is also a significant improvement. Biosthmors (talk) 17:20, 26 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)

Cherokee Wikipedia is a 2007 guinea pig victim of an experiment in machine translation run by Jeffrey Merkey. The shit was just dumped onto the pages en masse. Any page longer than one sentence was produced by a computer program, and no human ever looked at it. Seb az86556 (talk) 21:41, 26 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I found this showing more info about their contributions elsewhere. Biosthmors (talk) 21:53, 27 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)
It's a very bad situation indeed. Automatic translation is especially bad when used for languages that are totally unrelated and function with a different grammar, such as from English to Cherokee. I propose to use a bot to add a template on top of all pages, so we can work to a way to fix them. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:41, 28 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)
My understanding is that there are several hundred articles on this wiki? I've been clicking the random page generator button (top left "ᎤᏍᏆᏂᎪᏗ ᎤᏆᏓᏛ", for anyone who doesn't know] and blanking down to "Subject ...", as I just did here. This is blunt, but I just want to get started. I did see someone edit a page on this wiki to add a category, marking an article as machine translated. Maybe most of the horrendous articles are already categorized? I'll post that category when/if I find it. Biosthmors (talk) 18:11, 29 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)
Category:Machine-translated articles. So after one cleans one up, remove the category? I just did this with ᏓᎬᎾ ᏥᏳ ᏗᏔᎳᏗᏍᏗ ᏚᎦᏘᎸᏒᎢ. Biosthmors (talk) 18:31, 29 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)
908 articles on chr wikipedia as of february, for what it's worth. Biosthmors (talk) 22:53, 29 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)
If we just had a list of articles on here sorted by size that would really help, since the large ones appear to be the garbage ones. Biosthmors (talk) 23:26, 29 ᎠᏄᏱ 2018 (UTC)
Special:LongPages is the link for this. Biosthmors (talk) 14:32, 3 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC) Thanks Biosthmors
I now start from number 5 6 7 8 or below in that list to find candidates to cleanup, for what it's worth. Biosthmors (talk) 15:33, 17 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
That's good :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:59, 18 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Biosthmors for starting this conversation and Ooswesthoesbes and Seb az86556 for providing context and clarification on the machine translation debacle. I see that editor was banned from Wikipedia a decade ago.

I also gave some remarks at the symposium at Western Carolina (I'm Derek). I think there would be interest in organizing an edit-a-thon out at Western Carolina, and hopefully we could get some of the fluent speakers to attend along with advanced learners. It would be great if, in preparation, we could clean all the garbage articles out. I like the idea of blanking them with boilerplate. It would be nice if there was a bot to do this, but if there are just a few hundred articles, we could probably get it done manually? I'm not a speaker, but could coordinate the translation of the boilerplate or template by a fluent speaker.

What else should we be considering if we wanted to reboot this project with an edit-a-thon? --R12ntech (talk) 18:24, 9 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure we can get a user run a bot to mark all pages automatically. That shouldn't be too much work. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:18, 10 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)

Shall I make a request so someone will run a bot on this wiki to mark all pages with a category like [[Category:To be checked]]? Or would you prefer the category to have another name? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 09:23, 13 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)

That would be great, thanks. --R12ntech (talk) 15:40, 13 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
A user has already indicated she is willing to help us out :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 16:28, 18 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
Hi. Is it correct that simply all pages in the main namespace should be added to the category "To be checked"? Should I run my bot with or without a bot flag? --MF-Warburg (talk) 12:12, 19 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct. As there are virtually no edits on this wiki, I think a bot flag is not necessary. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:34, 20 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
Done. By the way, I also unprotected a lot of pages in the Wikipedia namespace, see Special:Log/protect, which might be worth to look at / update / delete / ... --MF-Warburg (talk) 12:59, 20 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much! Hopefully we can address the issue soon :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:53, 20 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)

Random thoughts for someone knowledgeable about Cherokee[edit]

  • I searched for ᎠᎹᏍᎧᎦᎯ at cherokeedictionary.net but there were no hits. I noticed that one source defined a waterfall as ᎠᎹ ᎦᏙᎣᏍᎬᎢ, but I believe that was derived from a self-published source, for what it's worth. I wonder if it is an incorrect title. Biosthmors (talk) 10:14, 2 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
    • That website didn't have a definition for badger, so it's not as comprehensive as I was hoping, for what it's worth. Biosthmors (talk) 16:56, 2 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm surprised to see that Jupiter ᏧᏈᏓ has Cherokee names for 50 of its moons. Where could that be verified? The word list cited in the article doesn't go into that kind of detail. Biosthmors (talk) 23:00, 2 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)
  • Category:ᎠᎾᎵᏏᎾᎯᏍᏗᏍᎩ shows the word being used most commonly for economics here, but ᎠᎾᎵᏏᏀᎢᏍᏗᏍᎩ (my emphasis) is given when one searches for a match at http://cherokeedictionary.net/ Biosthmors (talk) 20:08, 2 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
    • Shall I move the category to the correct form "ᎠᎾᎵᏏᏀᎢᏍᏗᏍᎩ", including all the pages that are in it? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:52, 3 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
      • Maybe we should wait for someone who knows more about Cherokee to comment? I've heard some words can be represented with alternate forms. But if you want to be bold and go ahead and do so, I wouldn't object. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) 19:27, 3 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
        • Is there a difference between "economy" and "economics" in English? --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:13, 4 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
          • Yes. Why do you ask about that? ᎠᎵᏏᏅᏙᏗ is given as economy in the Noquisis word list, for what it's worth. And I'm assuming a bit that ᎠᎾᎵᏏᎾᎯᏍᏗᏍᎩ means economics anyhow, from context. A recent post here shows two varieties (Eastern and Western) for the word for en:w:Fire Pink, for what it's worth. I wonder if ᎠᎾᎵᏏᎾᎯᏍᏗᏍᎩ and ᎠᎾᎵᏏᏀᎢᏍᏗᏍᎩ are just two different dialectal forms. Biosthmors (talk) 23:55, 5 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
            • In that case, let's leave it for now. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 10:24, 7 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

Interface translation[edit]

This Wikipedia was created before the Incubator system, so there has apparently never been a major push to complete the interface translation. If anyone wants to work on this, the Cherokee portal on translatewiki is here: [2], and the direct link to the "most important messages" for the Mediawiki interface is here: [3]

Here's a brief article on the topic: Translating the software that powers Wikipedia --R12ntech (talk) 19:32, 11 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)

Admin[edit]

Considering we probably got a lot of clean-up work to do, I want to request admin rights to delete unsalvageable pages, so we don't get a way too long backlog. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:59, 18 ᎧᏩᏂ 2018 (UTC)

Temporary admin access has been granted, so I can delete pages now for clean up. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 10:13, 1 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
Cool. Would it be reasonable for you to post here (or somewhere else) what you might delete and why? Maybe we could use this thread as a place to propose/discuss/act upon articles people think would be better off deleted. To begin, I've noticed some random pages around here, such as Zemeros flegyas, a S. and SE Asian butterfly species, or Ayyavazhi, a Hindu denomination. I would guess that those articles would be good candidates to delete because they are in no way connected to the Cherokee language, culture, or history, as far as I am aware. (Actually I notice that Ooswesthoesbes you created the one on the butterfly, for what it's worth.) Biosthmors (talk) 20:22, 2 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
Sure, post them here.
Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is an ideal platform for Sprachausbau: showing that the Cherokee language is more than just connected to its own culture, and can be used to discuss everything in all domains (including things on the other side of the world, or even further). A more valid reason to delete Zemeros flegyas would be that it has no real contents except for an image and the chances are low that it will be expanded. (As you are aware, I have only superficial knowledge of Cherokee and can't write my own sentences. I created the article a long time ago. Then they wanted to close this wiki, and I tried to do some activity to prevent closure). --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:50, 3 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
I agree with what you're saying about Sprachausbau. I'd say the unlikeliness that it will be expanded would be the best reason. My cleanup activities around here (example) are premised on the idea that the beginning of a sentence (despite it not containing any significant content) will make it easier for someone to write a decent introductory sentence or two on a topic. Biosthmors (talk) 19:22, 3 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)
Sure :) Mark any page you see fit for deletion with {{Delete}}, and I'll run through them. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:13, 4 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

ᎠᏑᏫᏍᏗ means rouge according to http://cherokeedictionary.net/ , but it is currently the title of the article for color. Color appears to be ᏗᎧᏃᏗ, which is currently only a redirect to ᎠᏑᏫᏍᏗ. Perhaps we should delete the redirect at ᏗᎧᏃᏗ and move the color article there, then delete the leftover redirect for ᎠᏑᏫᏍᏗ? Biosthmors (talk) 19:37, 3 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

Done. However, I kept the redirect for now, as it is linked a lot. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:13, 4 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

Delete?[edit]

I placed {{Delete}} on Sung Jae-gi. I think we should delete it because it seems unlikely it will ever be expanded to contain quality Cherokee-language content. I also don't like the idea that it has an English name as a title, but I imagine that can't be avoided sometimes. For comparison, at en:w:Sung Jae-gi, the article has been getting an average of 12 page views a day, for what it's worth. Biosthmors (talk) 16:33, 15 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

That page is just POV-pushing spam (self-promotional), so it's gone. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:53, 16 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

I placed {{Delete}} on ᏩᎦᏧᎧᏅᏍᏕᎾ ᎤᏂᎾᏗᏅᏗ, an article on market trends. I think this article should be deleted because it is a highly specialized topic that is unlikely to be edited, was machine-translated, and seems better scrubbed from the site than to even leave a stub. The article hasn't had any significant edits in the last 12 or so years. I only see that some minor edits (such as fixing transliterations into the Cherokee script) have been made. Biosthmors (talk) 02:36, 23 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

I agree, it is way too specific for now. It's better to focus on articles with more priority. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:49, 23 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)

I marked ᎠᏥᎸᏍᎩ because it appears to be a common word for flower (but can also mean either rose or orchid per the online dictionary) that is currently redirecting to the rose article. Flower (ᎠᏥᎸᏍᎩ) is a fundamental topic that should exist as a red link until a standalone article is created, in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) 02:19, 25 ᎠᎾᎠᎬᏘ 2018 (UTC)